a DISCUSSION With Professional Hitting Coach Jamie Nelson
Below is a lightly edited transcript of the conversation between Brandon Guyer from Fully Equipped Athlete and guest Jamie Nelson, professional hitting coach on the philosophy of hitting and preparing for a game.
If you’d like to check out the unedited video, you can find it HERE
Brandon:
All right, guys. Welcome back to another episode of our webinar series. Today is a webinar I've really been looking forward to. My hitting coach in my days when I played at Tampa Bay, none other than Jamie Nelson. Jamie, thanks so much for joining us, man.
Jamie Nelson:
My pleasure, BG. My pleasure. It's good to see your face. Good to hear your voice.
Brandon:
I've been talking to you a lot lately. I get to finally see you. It's been a couple of years, thanks again. Jamie is one of the hitting coaches in the Tampa Bay Rays Organization. Where are you, so you're in?
Jamie Nelson:
Montgomery Double A.
Brandon:
So Nelly as I call him, was the hitting coach in Tampa Bay when I was there. Nelly is one of my favorite coaches I've ever got to work with [and] play for, so to have him on was a no brainer, just to talk about hitting. [I]t's hitting but it's also the mind. How the mind controls the hitting and we'll get into all aspects of that. But first Nelly came up with...he has so many good nuggets.
[H]is philosophy is all in, he wrote them all down. I went through it and wrote some bullet points and we're going to go through those step by step. I really think there's just so much good information out there for...I was just going to say high schoolers, but it's really any age group. No matter what level you're at you can learn something. Whether you're big league college, high school, little league, no matter what age. Even my son is about to play T-ball could probably learn something, so it's just great, valuable stuff.
Nelly...you preach the key to successful hitting is contact point, getting a good contact point. Obviously, there's more that goes into it...but if you wanted to start with that and what made you think that it's contact point that is most critical and what kind of gets you there?
Jamie Nelson:
Well, I mean, in a perfect world, we're completely balanced at contact. That's a perfect world, but as you know as well as I do, we get fooled sometimes on some off-speed pitches. [Y]our body's not always in the correct position and you can be off balanced and have a good contact point on the ball with your energy going through the ball and not only hit it hard, but drive it.
[O]ne of the things that I learned, the farthest ball I ever hit was a splitter that was about shin high over the middle of the plate. I just kept on going, I kept my shoulder and head on it. I ended up hitting it out to left field, but my entire energy was going through that baseball and I just happened to catch it perfectly on the ball. And that proved something to me.
I would say there's been times when we didn't have extension, [but] we had good contact point on the ball when you hit the ball hard. Ideally, you'd like to have the contact point on the ball and your body, that's when you get your tape measure bat flip tosses.
But the contact point is huge, and I don't think we work on that enough. We work on our swing, our swing, our swing, our swing. Well, you know what? You don't hit the ball right, I could be in a perfect swing at perfect contact point on my body and be above or below the ball. So, how good is it on my body? Yet I could be a little bit further off balance and hit on the top inside half and get some backspin and drive the ball. So I personally think that's the most important part is getting to that desired contact point on the baseball.
Brandon:
I've always had a short swing, but because of that, contact point would kind of get off sometimes and I would cut my swing off and not necessarily get through it. So, one thing you always said with me is that if you're punching someone you want to get through it, not just make contact, get through it. So that was something we consistently worked on.
And I remember coming back for off the DL before we faced David Price. [J]ust being in the cage, not feeling good, working on drills with you about literally just getting a good contact point and getting through the ball, that's the name of the game. [T]hen I went in [and] had a good game but it's just because I was in my head and ingrained in there, so...everything took off. I know for you, I'm just going over some of what you talked about that you wrote down and what you preach. Slow things down to have good pitch recognition.
And on deck, get in rhythm with your pitcher, sync up with them like dance. [T]hat's just start[ing] way before you get in the box...the on deck routine, which is so critical for any age group. [T]hen just spend enough time working on rhythm to get into good [a] contact point. So you combine those things,[and] that will lead you to get to that good contact point, right?
Jamie Nelson:
I think one of the most important things is for somebody to be able to repeat their load. And when I say that, I mean from no matter where you start your hands, it doesn't matter down up, over here, over here, when I want to get to a consistent power position, yours might be different than mine. Most guys, their power position is pretty similar, maybe a quarter to a half inch, maybe to an inch off...from somebody else. But the bottom line is if I can get to that power position, to be ready to launch or pull my trigger to go forward to the baseball every time, I have a better chance of acquiring and attaining that desired contact point.
Jamie Nelson:
The problem is we don't work on our load enough. We take it for granted. And this happens and I think it's one of the biggest traps. BG, I think it happens during batting practice when you[have] some 50-year-old guy, 60-year-old guy, no offense because I'm 60. But you got somebody throwing 50 to 60 miles an hour, 60 if you're lucky and so I can actually start my load when he lets go [of] the ball. Well, that's not going to put me in a good position for [game time].
Brandon:
You can get away with things, right?
Jamie Nelson:
And not only working on that load, but it's getting me to know me. So, I'm facing Brandon Guyer. Okay, he's on the mound and I didn't see your pitch by the way. So, he's on the mound. Now, when I'm doing this I'm not just learning Brandon Guyer, I'm learning [about] me and I'm learning how to slow my load down to get to that desired trigger point. We don't work on it enough, we get in a trap during BP of starting too late and not working on the importance of that.
[I]f a desired contact point is my purpose, I need to have that down and it needs to be slow and under control, because when I'm going to go forward, it's a controlled violence. And in that initial route, if my load is back here and it's too quick, my initial route is this way and I'm going to lose my bat head and it could cause me a half an inch to a quarter inch on where I made contact on the ball, just because I didn't get to that power position soon enough or I had somewhat of a too fast and out of control load. Does that make sense to you?
Brandon:
[R]emember, at times I'd be up there standing and almost...jumped at the ball.
Jamie Nelson:
Right.
Brandon:
At least early on, but then working with you and everyone, you always said slow and easy, slow and easy. And I never, I used to do it. I got away from it, but just really doing that consistently, especially when you're on deck and acting like you're in the box and actually getting an at bat while you're on deck and getting slow and easy with the pitcher...it makes such a big difference.
And a lot of times, whether it's high school game, college games, you see guys go out on deck and they're just doing stuff to get loose and the pitcher's pitching and they're looking [at] fans or throwing the bat around like this. Whereas if you can take that and really [get in sync] with a pitcher. [A]t the same time I know you're big on visualization...if you can be on deck and visualize, "Okay, as a righty, I want to hit a line drive or hit the ball super hard, if I get under it a home run to the opposite field gap." Things like that if you can do that on deck before you get to the plate while you're working on the rhythm, you're just going to be that much better of a position to succeed, right?
Jamie Nelson:
Well, I'm going to throw something [out there] and I know you remember it. You had to have remembered it. James Loney...I always say when a guy comes in and you're working, you could be working in the dugout and you're sitting there. As soon as he's moving, I'm moving, you're dancing with him. [T]hat's where the rhythm comes in. The tempo of that rhythm is up to you, but we all know that when we start late, that's when everything speeds up. And now all of a sudden that baseball becomes a marble or a golf ball.
It doesn't mean you can't hit. It could still be a fastball. You get in the right spot, you still hit it. But what you're doing is when you start later you're speeding that ball up. I want to make 100 [into] 95, I want to make 95 [into] 90, I want to make 90 [into] 85. [L]earning how to slow that down is an art and we don't work on it enough. What we think we're doing is we go into the machine and we put it on 100 and we think that's slowing us down, get ready for 100. No, start sooner and slower. But Loney would adjust made the last out. Not the last out of the inning, but he made the last out. Now we bring in a reliever, all right? Loney is not even up for another nine guys and he's watching the reliever and he's just sitting there going, just working on his load the entire day. He's not even going to be up for another inning or two.
Brandon:
Another reason he hit around 300 every year.
Jamie Nelson:
Yes, sir. The important [thing is] he had control of that load to get to the trigger position to where when I'm getting ready to go forward, I'm under control, I'm precise and direct to the ball.
Brandon:
Yeah, I mean, there's other reasons he hit 300 every year. Obviously, hand-eye coordination, great swing.
Jamie Nelson:
True.
Brandon:
But the fact what you're just talking about is a huge reason why he was able to do that. [S]omething that you worked on with me a lot, worked on with a lot of guys is...hav[ing] that approach and anticipat[ing] the pitch you're looking for, and be like yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, no, but assume that's going to be the pitch. The one you're looking for. That fastball away. It's going to be that pitch every time, so you're yes, yes, yes. So you are slowing early and you're on time, because if it is that pitch, you're going to do damage to it.
Jamie Nelson:
I'm big on anticipating and looking. I firmly believe there's a mind-eye-body connection.We only have to cover all pitches with two strikes. [W]ith two strikes and a man on third infield in... you don't have to cover all pitches. You just [have] to cover all pitches that are up in the zone, that might be your only pitch to hit the fly ball.
With two strikes, you got to cover everything that could be a strike. Now, there's no more hit and runs, and there's no more squeezes. So those are the only other two times. [I]n the game of baseball today, you only have two times where you have to cover all pitches and one of the times it's only a specific spot in the zone.
So if my desired contact point is to be reached, it would behoove me to stick with one pitch and stay committed. I'm going to throw a name at you and there's several names that you've faced and that we've seen, but...when Fernando Rodney was on 97 to 99 with an 81 mile an hour Bugs Bunny change up, I don't care who you are, and I don't care who you think you are, you're not covering both pitches, you're not covering both pitches. You've got to look one or the other.
I said one name, we could probably go over 100 of those guys that have pitches that it's too hard to cover both. [P]rior to two strikes, you're looking for a pitch, your brain is telling your eyes what to look for, and then your eye sees that [and] organizes your body to do damage on that pitch. Otherwise, we're just reacting. You know as well as I do...I've been in this game 42 years, it's hard to cover all that stuff and you don't have to. [W]hat happens sometimes when we try to cover them both, I'm late on the fastball and in between on the off-speed pitches.
Brandon:
Oh, yeah.
Jamie Nelson:
Instead of understanding how to commit to a pitch in a zone and staying committed to that, the biggest problem is we don't work on it enough during BP and when I'm working on it, my eyes tell my body, "No." Otherwise, I'm firing. But your only decision is no, but you have to say no. [W]e give up a lot of at bats by not saying no. And if we don't have a plan we give up a lot of the bats by just swinging. And a lot of us had good hand-eye coordination so you're putting the ball in play, but it's weakly hit.
Brandon:
Dude, I did that so much.
Jamie Nelson:
Being smart and controlling your bats. The stuff I wrote about. It's about controlling at bats and I don't think that we do a good enough job of it when we have the opportunity to work on things that will help.
Brandon:
[O]ne thing you talked about when you're on deck, maybe even before you get on deck…[B]efore the game if you face the pitch[er] before seeing a vid. Nowadays, you see video, you know how he's probably going to attack you, but if you're a high school or college, you've never seen him and there's no video. [W]atch the game before you hit. [I]f you're leading off...watch him in warmups and just go up to the plate with an approach. Because if you're not... you're going to become a reactionary hitter whereas if you have a plan, a bad plan is better than no plan, and I know you say that.
Brandon:
So it's better to have some sort of plan than to have no plan and just go up there and I'm just going to swing the swing. [Y]ou're going to get hit, you're going to get lucky, but on a consistent basis, that's not going to happen. I know going to the plate [and] talking about that [and] going over that in your head.
[Y]ou talk about breathing, and I'm a huge advocate for breathing. I had it stitched in my wristband like you said breathe nice and slow on deck before stepping into the box. I mean, you can really breathe [at] all times, but especially when you're on deck to slow you down. [I]f you're in a late game situation...and you're on deck and [there is a] runn[er] on second base...your mind [may] be like, "I might up in this big situation."
If you're not really breathing, all that anxiety and stress is going to get to you, you're going to be thinking about things you should not be thinking of instead of your actual approach. So I love that when you talk about the breathing, not just going to the plate or on deck, but in between the pitch[es], stuff like that. So anything else that [while] on deck, because we're trying to go in order here, like dug out [or] on deck heading to the plate that you would think we should cover?
Jamie Nelson:
Well, yes. [I]t came up a couple of times over the last couple of years. We have all the data on these guys. We know what they ate the night before and we know what they ate for breakfast. I mean, we know everything about them. We know what they're thinking before they do. So, you have all this information down, Brandon Guyer throws 98 miles an hour. He's 95 and he’ll touch 98. You look at that and you kind of get an idea. I didn't have the benefits of that when I played. We're not going to go back to the stone age and prehistoric times, I get it.
But my point is, I see 98 and that registers in my mind. How does that get your body ready? How do you just walk out of the dugout and say, "Okay, I'm ready for 98?" So, I need to look and watch the game and see what this guy's doing. I need to dance with him to see if I have to speed up my tempo and get that rhythm going and Brandon Guyer threw, he's hitting 97, 98 all throughout his outing tonight. Three days later, we face him again, and he's hitting 93, 94. Okay. How do you get ready for that? You know what I mean?
So, sometimes we count on that data. When you said it a minute ago, watch and get out and move your body to his. Get out and dance. He's not dancing as fast today. And we always...you're a fully equipped athlete, we don't always feel good every day. And some day[s], we're 80%, some days we're 90%. But one day, you've got 97, 98 and the next day or two days later, you've got 93, 94 yet we saw a 98, so we're set up. Instead of getting out there and diligently dancing with that pitcher, that tells you everything.
And I think sometimes we don't understand how valuable that tool is. Then once you do that, the only thing you have to do when you get into the box is...have the right angle and you set your committed pitch or the pitch that you want to get into. I've already been working on my rhythm to dance with him. [Y]ou’ve got guys like Cueto and the shimmy and the quick step or slide step, you [have] to be ready for that. So being on the [on] deck circle, as soon as he comes set, start moving, start moving. I could always speed it up or slow it down, but if I start it late, we know it's trouble. We know it's trouble.
Brandon:
Love it, man. So, true. [W]e talked about going up to the plate. [W]e already did our work on deck. [W]e're walking up to the plate [and] getting in the box. [B]y that time, hopefully, you should have a committed approach that you have in your mind. Based on the situation, runner on second, no out. [G]oing up there, you should have in your head, "Okay, I'm not going to try to hit inside pitch. I'm looking for something away to drive that way."
But hav[ing] that set approach based on the situation and then try[ing] to stay committed to it. Think about the contact point you need for it. Be ready early, like you always stressed. And then …[w]hen you actually swing, keeping your head on the ball, not pulling off, not hitting the ball and going to see the result real quick.
[W]hen you're hitting the ball, not taking your head off of it, because by doing that you're going to throw things off. [T]hen you're going to think like a lot of hitting coaches do [that] it’s mechanics, but really it's what you're thinking up here that's leading you to do that and throwing off everything. So, anything else like when you're actually hitting? I know, you have checkpoints...the load phase, the swing, finish, result. If you want to just go over those?
Jamie Nelson:
[F]irst of all, I'm going to tell you what can happen. [Y]ou'd go up to the plate, man on first, nobody out. Manager gives you a hit and run, right? Must have been in 1980s because hit and run [is] over, but [he] gave me a hit and run. I’ve got to think [about] the toughest pitch to cover on a hit and run. So, it's usually that high pitch. High insider, so I’ve got to get ready to get here dependent upon your team's philosophy. Guy throws a wild pitch and I’ve swung at it. Guy goes to second base. Now there's a man on second, nobody out. I’ve got to get a pitch to hit the other way. I'm trying to drive and move that runner. That's my second approach, wild pitch.
Now the man's at third, counts one and one, infield in. [N]ow I'm looking for a ball up, approach number three in my first at bat. [S]o now it's the third different approach. I'm looking for something that I could drive into the outfield, and as soon as I see it down, my eyes stay shut off. Fastball or wild pitch or it doesn't matter. The guy scores. Now, we go back to 0. Nobody on. It's a two-one count. Now, I'm looking for a pitch to do damage on. And then he throws me a strike, I foul a ball off. Now I got two strikes.
You have five different approaches in five different pitches and one at bat. [M]y philosophy is, we used to call it "What time is it?" Inning, score, who's up, who's pitching…[what’s] the importance of all that?
[W]hat I'd like to do is... to have my hitters have checkpoints. What pitch am I looking for that I'm going to be committed to...starting sooner and slower. Number three is attacking that pitch and not going outside of my discipline. Number four is keeping the head on the ball and number five should be away. struck ball or a ball that I drove or a ball that I hit solid.
So after my at bat, I come back over, I know where I messed up. I probably pulled an early or late trigger or I swung at a pitch out of my discipline. The other thing that...can come into place on number three, which is your swing to the ball, is sometimes my desire to hit the ball too hard. That's going to affect my trigger, which is going to affect my contact point, which is going to affect how hard I hit the ball. So those things to me are checkpoints. It has nothing to do with your swing. It has everything to do with what you're thinking and how you react to those thoughts.
I could go over the tooth story now and the shower story now with that analogy, but I think we get too fixated on mechanics. Where's my hands? Where's this, this and that? Boom, boom, boom instead of thinking about attacking the baseball. And I believe that approach fixes mechanics. So, if I'm thinking about hitting a ball 4, 5, 6 on the one through seven chain, which is right center, okay, my eyes are telling me where I'm setting my sights up.
[J]ust doing that right there might get me more in line, I could stay more stacked, and I could stay more balanced and strong throughout the swing because of my thoughts of where I'm going to hit the ball. If the ball is inside I'm not swinging at it because I can't hit it over there anyway. And when I do swing at it, then my discipline goes out the door, and my body does not organize itself to do that damage and that's where I think we mess up sometimes. We think about mechanics and consequently, we swing at pitches we shouldn't be swinging at. I'm watching some of these highlights on a daily basis on guy...and these are major league hitters that still don't know and they're just reacting and weakly hitting the ball early in the count..to the first baseman. [Y]our bats over. That's on you. It has nothing to do with your swing, nothing.
Brandon:
I was just watching Miguel Cabrera. He's playing the Indians right before we jumped on here and he's struggling. [F]irst at bat, first pitch... cutter away, he swings. [It’s a] lazy pop up, foul ground first base. One of the best hitters of the past decades. It shows...maybe...he's not thinking or...he's trying to do too much.
It's happened to the best players who have ever played this game, but if you can do this kind of stuff... you're going to come back and [say[, "Oh, I know what it was my hands were too high or I'm going to open up my stance, now I'll be good." No, if you work on this, people don't want to work on the six inches in their head. They want to change their hands.
I was guilty of that so much. And I think a lot of baseball players are, but then later on in my career, as I got up in the big leagues throughout the minor leagues It got better and better working with different hitting coaches and learning the correct ways to go about it. But until you know that, you're in that mode of changing everything instead of changing it [in your head].
Jamie Nelson:
I think it's of utmost importance. I'm not saying I'm the only one to think about it. There's a lot of mental strength coaches out there that that's their gig and I agree with them wholeheartedly and support them immensely. But most coaches are going to go to your hands. Well, think if you put your hands right here, you're looking you're trapping your hands. Well, why am I trapping my hands? Because I'm trying to knock the crap out of the ball. Why did it become a mechanical problem? Because of the way I was thinking?
Jamie Nelson:
I liken it to a car, your body. Your body is the car. Gas allows our engine to run efficiently. But when we have problems, we don't think about the gas, we change the spark plugs or the oil or we're putting air in a tire. No, the car runs on good gas. If you put the wrong gas in, it will screw up your engine, putting the [right] gas in will allow that engine to run efficiently and this is your gas tank. [A] lot of times we want to fix the body of the car. Well, if you're out of gas and you've got a dent in your car, you don't fix the dent, you got to put gas in the car.
I mean, we didn't come out of our mother's womb learning how to brush our teeth or take a shower.Over time you learn how to do that.[N]ow, we can do it in our sleep, right? You could close your eyes and brush your teeth or take a shower, wash, everything you need to wash perfectly with your eyes closed. [N]ow let's throw some information in there. You have nerve damage on one of your teeth. That information, which would be the same information of getting a pitch in the 4, 5, 6 spot or 2, 3, 4 spot, meaning in or out or away, whatever or I'm sitting breaking ball.
That information will change my mechanics just like the nerve that's that's killing me in my tooth, right? I'm not going to brush my teeth the same way based on that information, so I have to change my mechanics to get it done or you're taking a shower, and you've got a gash in your leg. Well, that's pretty good information. I don't want some pain. So, it changes the way I wash my body. So it changes my mechanics there. So using our brain, well, let's just put it to you this way. It's ignorant not to use the brain that God gave you, in order to think because the information we put in is usually pretty good information. When we don't put that information in, we just become reactionary.
Why would I just want to react instead of reacting to some information, or have good knowledge that's going to help me with this? It just makes too much sense to not want to do. A lot of times we go to the physicality.
Brandon:
I was speaking at a camp the other day. [O]ne guy was talking to me, [and] asked me what I thought of the launch angle, all that stuff. And it got me back to my rookie year. Well, I came out early to watch Miguel Cabrera. I know I'm bringing him up again. He's one of the best hitters ever. Why not talk about him.
[Before a game, I went to watch BP] and I watched his setup and load [and] how pretty it is. I'm like, man, I want to do that. So I remember, for a while there, I was actually trying to do that. And through that offseason, I was like, "I'm going to try to hit like him." And it's not bad to emulate them, but you never end up going to get to where they are because you're not. You don't know what they're thinking. He has that approach. Whatever he's dealing with his load, but it works great for him because whatever he's thinking up here and his approach, or just confidence or whatever. You don't have that same thought process that he's going through.
So that swing works perfectly for what he's thinking. [Y]ou have to develop [that] yourself swing, but more so develop your mind and then your swing, your natural talent will help take over and put your body in the right position.
Jamie Nelson:
Right. Well, I remember going to Detroit...Steven Souza said to me before the game, he goes, "Miguel's kind of lost his power the other way. I don't think he's as good as the other way hitter.” Well, Erasmo was throwing that game and he threw him a one which is right on the inside corner, right on the black. Most guys are trying to yank that thing into left field or get the head out, boom, boom and boom. He hit it 440 feet to straight away center.
And I talked to some other guys that said his approach is to go to right center. That's what he wants to do, he wants to hit a home run or right center, so it keeps him strong, keeps him on the ball. He also knows the only reason why they're coming inside is to tie him up. So, it's easier to get extended outside or over the plate or outside. Much harder to get extended on a one-two pitch which is the inside part of the plate, so he just felt, "You know what? Screw it. I'll fight those off with two strikes." Other than that I'm looking to go up the middle, the other way.
And if you look at his home runs [and] his success rate, his fast balls that were hit hard or hit for home runs were from about maybe left center, maybe left center over the right field. Also, he hit out to left field were all off-speed pitches, but what's weird about that is he hit two home runs to right field against us in Detroit and then came to Tampa and hit two more to right field and I looked at Souza and I said. "What report are you looking at? He hasn't lost anything." But anyway, it is the approach and you can try to do that like Miguel Cabrera, but there's only one Miguel Cabrera.
Brandon:
[Y]ou can have the best swing in the world, maybe not Miguel, but you have a swing that is pretty, maybe not perfect, because there's no perfect swing, but you have a beautiful swing, but if you're thinking the wrong things that's going to mess up your route to the ball. If you're thinking homerun, you're probably... going to hook it instead of staying inside like Miguel does.
[Y]ou say, the longer you can wait...the better you see...the better decision making you're going to make. [H]ow important to you is the route to the ball? [Y]our route to the ball, you're going to get your physical reps in the cage in BP...but how important is your route to the ball and the thought process that actually leads to your route of the ball?
Jamie Nelson:
Well, if your route is shorter to the ball...I'm more direct to the ball. That means I can see the ball longer. If I see the ball longer, I'm going to make a better decision. If I make a better decision, my contact point is more likely to come into play. And I'm going to get my desired result, which is a well struck ball or a ball driven. I think sometimes with this launch angle thing, I think the thing that gets misconstrued is they use their backside to lift the ball. So now, [the] bat heads coming out and around, and then it's getting to the ball, so that initial route...is so much longer.
And I'm not saying you can't hit that way because there's guys that have long swings that are pretty good with their timing, but they have to be really good with staying committed to the pitches they're hunting and they don't have as long to see the ball. I stole that from George Brett. He said, "The longer I wait, the better I see it, the better I see it, the better my decision. The better my decision, the better my timing. The better my timing, the harder I hit the ball. The harder I hit the ball, the better the chance it goes into a hole and it's indisputable.
So, why would I not want to do that? [I]t's like if I asked you a question right now, and I gave you one second to answer it or I asked you a question, I gave you four seconds to answer. At least you get three more seconds to make a better decision. And not only that, the shorter your swing, the more compact and body oriented you get into it. It's more in-sync. The longer and harder I swing, the more apt I am to get out of alignment and body parts are not in-sync, again. I'm not saying you can't hit but it sure makes it tougher.
Brandon:
[L]et's get into batting practice. I know you have a really cool philosophy for BP, what is it, to actually get the most out of it, not just do it to feel good, but actually, maybe do it in a way where it simulates live game action. So, what are your thoughts on BP? Maybe whether it's rounds, whether it's how hard the actual pitcher is throwing at you, changing of pitches. If you want to just explain that a little bit.
Jamie Nelson:
Well, I'm a little different cat in the sense of what I've recognized over the years is the old traditional...BP, that's useless. It's absolutely useless. [U]nless you're looking to stroke your ego and see how many rows deep.
But for me, I like to challenge things. If you want route work, it's going to be very minimal, so I'll give you two rounds of route work. [A]fter that, I'm going to get you on the fastball and I am going to let it go. So I'm getting you to shorten your swing and I'm getting you to hunt balls in specific zones. I can still hit traditional BP, but what is your approach to it?
[N]ot only would I challenge you [on] your first round to hit fast balls at a high velocity, but in the second round, we're going to go nothing but breaking balls, but I'm going to tell you. I'm going to tell you what's coming. It's nothing but breaking balls. So, now you've seen a pretty fast fastball from about 35 feet by the way, so the distance is shorter... Just so they see how important it is to slow that load down and be under control.
And you look at all the guys that are really good, both hitters and power, their loads are slow, so we would go with the curveballs. In the next round, we'd go two strikes. So I'm going to throw you a seven, a ball on the outside corner and I'm going to tell you, look seven up. That will allow me to cover more pitches. If I just say look fastball, you might try to get to the inside fastball, now you got no shot on off-speed. So we go around, and I'll throw you the first two balls on the seven ball, which is on the corner. So, now you get your eyes adjusted for that. Then you don't know what's coming. But I'll throw you a knuckleball, slider, curveball, fastball, and you're battling, you got to cover the whole zone.
Next round, man on third, infield in. Okay, so now I'm not covering the whole zone, I'm looking for something to start at my rib cage. Okay, once it pops up and it's at that rib cage, my eyes get big and it's "Oh, yeah." The only thing that's troubling there is sometimes we will chase a high fastball. It happens. [B]ut with this theory, it gives you a chance to hit that very first pitch, which could be the only pitch you have to drive that ball to the outfield for the RBI.
After that, I'll say, "Okay, BG, sit on it." You're going to say, "Sit on what?" I'm going to say, "Whatever you want to sit on." I'll know when you take the cock shot at [a] pitch that you weren't sitting on. But during this round, I do not want you to swing at a curveball that I hang, even though you're looking for a fastball and even though I hang it, because this is around where we're working on the eyes to tell your body no, so as soon as it's not what I was looking for, no, immediately my body shuts down.
So your brain is telling your eyes what to look for, your eyes are organizing your body once they see what they see. It's either green light or red light. But we don't work on that enough. So then we'll go that route. And then after we do that route, then we'll start having at bats. So I'll give you about 10 at bats, 15 at bats, whatever. So now when you start the game...you've already had 10 at bats to 15 at bats before the game even started. So when you get up to that plate for that first at bat, you're feeling pretty comfortable and you've seen it all.
Now if I tell Brandon Guyer, "Hey, dude, this guy on 0-1 and 1-1, it is 90% off speed. Those are the two counts you sit on. If we hadn't seen an off-speed pitch all day, how well am I preparing you as a hitting coach?
And we'll talk smack. I'll throw you a knuckleball and you'll miss it. I'll say I know you couldn't hit that. Here's another one. And then I'll throw a fastball. So, now we're talking smack to each other so now we're getting competitive. So, we've already competed immensely before the game even started and I'll guarantee it's harder to hit some of my stuff from 35 feet than it is that guy 60 feet, 6 inches. There'll be times when you take a breaking ball and you sit on it. And I'll yell at you, "Mine's better." And you'll smile, so immediately, we've got a little bit more relaxation.
[A]t the beginning when you first start this, when you get to the competition part, it's tough to get beat. Nobody likes to get beat. We want to go into the game, feeling pumped up, chest out, chin up, but understanding that if we make that more difficult and the game easier, this is better. This is what determines whether it's easier or harder. If we don't use this, we're stupid. I mean, God gave us a brain to figure things out. Life is about problem solving, so we have to solve these problems to the best of our capability. And what we do is a hard thing to do, man. It's hard to hit.
Brandon:
In that situation, we're training the eyes, we're training the minds with th[at] distance you can't be up there from 30, 35 feet away if BP pitchers throwing hard and think about, "Oh, my load, all this stuff." You're thinking about [eye] on the ball, you're thinking what your mind's telling you.
[E]specially high school kids now who probably aren't playing a lot of games, they might go and play on the weekend or something like that, but during the week, they're not playing, but they're able to go to like a facility nowadays. What would be perfect for them is that they can go in there and if they have a BP coach, they're really kind of getting live at bats in a way, because a BP coach can do what you were talking about, so you don't go into that weekend game or you don't go three or four days off, not swinging. And maybe it's a showcase you're going to that if you show out, could get you a scholarship.
But if you go into it prepared and maybe do a BP like this and get live at bats get those curveballs get that pitch recognition. Train your mind. Train your eyes. It can only help you. And I do distinctly remember doing that with you. And I'm like anyone else, you want to feel good going into a game.
[Y]ou end up feeling really good after it and it was great and I loved it, but sometimes then you go to a game, say 95 to 100." It's like, "Wait, my BP felt so good, why am I missing this?" I was feeling so good in BP...if you're not taking a BP like you're talking about then that kind of changes things, changes your eyes and everything. So when you said that I really think that the high schoolers and the people who aren't able to play a lot right now can benefit so much because it'd be like they're getting those live at bat.
Jamie Nelson:
This sport is so tough and hitting is so tough, yet we don't want to challenge ourselves because of what you just said. They want to feel good and my question would be to them, "You want to feel good or you want to be good?"
And I'll never forget, I don't really want to say his name, but one of our players...said to me, "I'd rather feel comfortable in the box [and] not do well than feel a little funky and hit line drives." And I said, "That didn't make sense to me. I don't get that. Why would you not want to do well? You'd rather do poorly, but feel good in the box. Okay." That's the same principle as the guy that I told you about before that only wanted a little slow toss before the game. And during his BP, I throw them curveballs, he didn't want them. He goes, "No, no, no. Just fastball." I said, "Is that all you're going to get in the game?"
So getting real with yourself, the workouts that you do, the nutrition you put in your mouth. That's discipline. You know that's for the best. That's advanced thinking. Some of those guys might not want to be challenged. Some of them just want to hit the fastball and have the feel good session and that's great. That's fine. It's not going to do you any good at 7:00 when this guy is throwing sliders and breaking balls and change ups.
And it's preparing to have a good competition and your goal is not to get a base hit. My goal is to get my pitch and hit the ball hard. That's it, but if I know I'm going to encounter all these other pitches and yet I don't see [them] in batting practice? How am I supposed to do well against guys that actually have control of what they're throwing? So, I just liked the challenge theory...going back to double A and teaching them how to hit off-speed has been so rewarding for my career because I came up with this stuff.
[T]he double A level has been very rewarding and I'd figured out a few more things that I always wanted to implement. And when I was at the major league level, we didn't work on a lot of situational hitting, which is something I disagree with because if I get my mindset to that or if I don't get my mindset to that, then I'm going to expect to be doing it well in a major league game. I've never worked on it. All I'm working on is my swing. Well, how productive is that for you to get in these situations?
There's nothing worse than watching hitters that don't move the ball with runners in scoring position. And that's because they don't work on it one, and they're more committed to hitting a home run than they are putting the ball in play and moving a runner. And those are things that they're thinking, so some of that stuff bothers me. But the guys I've had in double A have been wonderful. It's been a lot of joy and they're eager to learn. And... I don't have as many gurus to counter. Everybody in big leagues got a guru somewhere. And so, after the game they're calling 5, 10 people. It's not as bad in the minor leagues.
Brandon:
Yeah. Dude, it seems the guys there are buying into it and the results speak for themselves. So when actually can see the results and you know it's working...when I talk to athletes, I [say], "You want to be player A," when we're talking about nutrition, "Player A who's in great shape, very efficient body or Player B average shape, average results, though not as fast, not as quick. Obviously, every single person I talked to wants to be Player A.
Do you really mean that at your core, are you going to put in the work that you know will help you? Are you going to eat clean? Are you going to work on your breathing? You're thinking. Are you going to do the BP that you know is going to help you? The fact that this stuff's out there and people aren't doing it and they know what kind of player they end up, they want to be Player A and the options are out there to do but a lot of people still don't do it. That's just what boggles my mind.
Jamie Nelson:
Well, that's that something that you're talking about the BP. The BP that I do is not one of those where you sit there and you're just taking swings and you just stay in the box. So, you're getting out of the box, you're taking a deep breath, you're letting the previous pitch go. You're setting your plan for what you want to get on the next pitch. So there's two things you're working on. Three, okay, I've sent my plan in. Okay, I'm going to look for a fastball away. Now, I'm going to get my body ready and I'm locked in my plan.
And now it's just about starting sooner and slower and attacking that plan, so [now] if you take a deep breath and it's done correctly, in slow through the nose, out slow through the mouth, as slow as you can. It allows you to relax more than you were in your previous state.
Brandon:
Lowers your heart rate.
Jamie Nelson:
Lowers your heart rate. It allows the quick twitch muscles to fire. I did a thing last year that I want to keep doing. I had a guy run to first base, run back, jog to first base, jog back, and then we took six lengths. I said bases loaded three-two count. So learning those situations you had talked about earlier about being able to control your breathing which is going to control the way you think...which then allows your body to work in a proficient way.
Brandon:
And put yourself in an uncomfortable position, whether it's this BP that you're going to get beat, you're not going to have that feel good, where you're going to just be [crushing] balls and everything and getting away with stuff, you're going to be uncomfortable. And my college coach always said...you want to be comfortable being uncomfortable. [You have to] get comfortable being uncomfortable. [I]n this game, there's going to be so many situations, so much failure, you're going to be uncomfortable.
So you might as well in practice [get] prepared [to] put yourself in those uncomfortable positions. So when you get to them, whether it's visualization or anything, you act like you've been there before, and you know how to handle it.
Jamie Nelson:
[T]here [are] so many things that you could go over, but the bottom line is you got to talk to that player into having enough confidence in you to understand that this is going to work. The drill that I came up with, the batting practice I came up with.
I was in my third week with this kid and he was still struggling. [T]hen one day, he got it. And the light bulb turned on and the light bulb has not turned off since my boy is hitting fourth [now].. So, excuse me. Once it clicks, it clicks, and you know how to do it, but like anything that has precision and accuracy with it, you have to work on it.
Jamie Nelson:
I've got a dartboard over here. The goal is to hit the bull's eye. Do you throw the dart as hard as you can to hit the bull's eye? No, because you want to be under control, precise. [S]o some of this involves [the idea that] less is more. Less effort is more control of the barrel, which is more control [of] your body to get more control [of] the barrel. [G]uys are throwing 90 to 100 miles an hour. All you have to do is get the head to the ball. And yeah, we're trying to create more power. That's where I think the biggest problem comes.
Brandon:
[A]s a hitter, the mindset, you talked about a Mike Trout quote when he worked with Ken Ravizza, talking about failure. When I talk about a strong mindset, I talk about how to handle failure and adversity, which is going to be a lot [of the time] baseball, any sport you're playing, how to have consistent high confidence. [I]t's going to go up and down, but try to build confidence as much as you can. And then visualization is another huge thing for the mindset.
But the thing Mike Trout talked about is the positive self-talk. Try to get those negative thoughts out of your head, and to have one of the best players...talk about when he started off before working with sports psychologists or really honing in on his mental side. He would get out and have these negative self-talk but Ken Ravizza says, as soon as you feel those negative thoughts coming in, try to flip it, turn into positive self-talk and then that strengthens your mindset more than anything, brings your confidence back.
Because let's be honest, if everyone had confidence all the time, no one would ever go into slumps. [B]ut that's the reason for slumps. Confidence is a huge reason and confidence is more so anything, mind and how you think and your perspective on life, on baseball, whatever sport you're playing. I loved when you put in that Mike Trout quote about how he's thinking in his head, the negative thoughts and once he could get those more positive and overtake the negative thoughts, then the talent just takes over.
Jamie Nelson:
Sometimes we get conflicted. For me. what I like to work on with guys is like, okay, Brandon Guyer before he gets to the box. He's looking for a five-six. Okay. I know a lot of mental guys say, try not to think about what you're doing before you get the box and react to your plan. Your brain never stops, so you determine whether you're reiterating the positive stuff. Here it comes 5,6,7. Here it comes 5, 6, 5, 6, 5, 6 and then the little devil jumps up and says, "Man, that's a pretty good splitter" or "Man, that's good slider," you better call timeout.
And get those conflicting devil and angel thoughts off your shoulder, because we talked about conflicted thoughts before it gets you laid on the fastball and in between on the off-speed. Stay committed to that pitch.
You have to stay committed to that pitch and it's hard sometimes because your brain doesn't stop working. So for me, the reiteration of what you're looking for once you get in that box helps keep the distraction and the negative thoughts out.
Brandon:
[A]ny player in [any] level that listens to this will be able to take out so much from it. And hopefully they can apply the BP or maybe they'll think differently on deck or when they're at the plate. Little things like that. If they can take little things like that out of this, I feel like we did our job. Anything else we're missing or anything?
Jamie Nelson:
It's just for me...everything you do starts with a thought and your thoughts enhance or hinder your actions and that's in any facet of life that you're going to participate in, but especially competition. What you're thinking prior to doing the task at hand, that's going to help or hinder.
Brandon:
[I]t makes me think of a Buddha quote, which is “what we think we become,” and it's so true.
Jamie Nelson:
Yes.
Brandon:
Or Napoleon Hill had a quote that says, "We are who we are because of the thoughts that enter and occupy our mind." So it goes back to Mike Trout, if you have these constant negative thoughts, you're probably going to just turn in, your confidence is going to go down, you can turn a negative person and bring people down. But if those thoughts that occupy your mind are more consistently positive, not just off the field, which is great, it's going to help that, but on the field. [I]f you're going to have those positive thoughts, positive body language, people are going to feed off of you. It's everything, man.
Jamie Nelson:
I can't believe how much I've learned over the years and wish that I could have applied it more into my game. I think all the very successful hitters, sometimes, do this without knowing they're doing it...by design because they know it works for them. People adhere to principles that make them successful, regardless of what facet of life it's in. So if you know this is going to be good for you, why you wouldn't do it, it just is baffling to me.
Brandon:
I feel like there's so many guys out there [that] might not even know they're doing it, might not know what they're doing with their swing, but maybe they're thinking the right way. But they don't even realize it's just what they do, but then you have those guys who I played with so many in the minor leagues that ...whatever, all this talent, but didn't have that ability to think the right way or put work into learn how to think that way and so they fizzle out.
Then you have a guy with average talent, but then he learns to acquire the mindset to really make the most of that average ability, but that will take him above that person who had the great ability, but didn't do the other little things and therefore, they were out of the game because of it. So, it's really crazy [that] some people would do it naturally, but then you [have] the players who have good talent, but not as God given as some of these other guys, but they're doing nutrition, eating, breathing, mindset, recovery, all this stuff, proper training, even sleeping [well], recovering.
Brandon:
They're doing the little things. [The] talent gap at every level shrinks and shrinks and shrinks, the game speeds up at every level. When they're doing that they're making the most of their abilities. They're going to climb above those guys who maybe were born with a little bit more talent. And that's the name of the game.
Jamie Nelson:
I think some of them that didn't do it when they get out are going to be disappointed that they didn't do it. You don't have to be a Phi Beta Kappa or the valedictorian to be a good baseball player.
Brandon:
Great stuff. I know you plan in the future [to do a book]. So everyone watching, be on the lookout for that in the future, because I'm telling you, it's gold. It's stuff that can only help you elevate your game, so that could be in the future. Nelly, thank you so much for jumping on. Always love talking with you, love working with you. And who knows, maybe we'll do something together down the road.[I]t's always a pleasure. So thank you so much.
Jamie Nelson:
I'd look very forward to that and likewise, my best to mom and the kids. It's good to see your face. It's good to hear your voice and I'm glad you're really happy with what you're doing and there's no doubt you'll be successful. And anything I can do to help you or the people that you're working with, I'm in.
Brandon:
I'm sure there's going to be a lot so thank you, Nelly, I look forward to it, man.
Jamie Nelson:
All right, my man. Love you.
Brandon:
Take care. I'll talk to you, man. Love you, man.
